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The complete European Body Base color table - Форум / ForumThe complete European Body Base color table - Форум / Forum
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Форум / Forum » Poecilia reticulata Peters 1859 (English-speaking forum / англоязычный форум) » Genetics » The complete European Body Base color table
The complete European Body Base color table
christinagДата: Четверг, 10.02.2011, 08:56 | Сообщение # 1
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Hello fellow breeders in Russia!

here is an attachment with the complete table of European body base colors, with some explanations. For full understanding, only practical crossings can give full information of genetic composition. We have not tested for iridofores, nor do we differentiate between different types of xantofores.

I will add a more descriptive explanation later.

If you have questions, please ask!

Greetings from Christina G

Прикрепления: european-bodyco.pdf(37.8 Kb)
 
genetika-guppyДата: Четверг, 10.02.2011, 15:12 | Сообщение # 2
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I see very very much mistakes in European Base body color system. cool

You can see these mistakes if we will cross different Base body color strains and get 250-300 fry in F2, but not 20-30...

 
christinagДата: Пятница, 11.02.2011, 03:52 | Сообщение # 3
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Hello!

Quote
I see very very much mistakes in European Base body color system.

Please do not call it mistakes, we have a different point ot wiew!
But lets talk about it ...

Quote
You can see these mistakes if we will cross different Base body color strains and get 250-300 fry in F2, but not 20-30...

This I cannot understand, please specify! biggrin

Cross what with what?

Greetings from Christina G

 
genetika-guppyДата: Пятница, 11.02.2011, 14:02 | Сообщение # 4
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Quote (christinag)
Please do not call it mistakes, we have a different point ot wiew!
But lets talk about it ...

No problem. It is not different points - it is unknoledges of problem (I write about cross results).

I have evidence if you needs.

Quote (christinag)
This I cannot understand, please specify! biggrin

Cross what with what?

Up to you. Blond x Blue, Transparent x Gray, Gold x Cream etc

You should to analyzed 250-300 fry in F2 for good evidence!!!

 
christinagДата: Понедельник, 14.02.2011, 07:35 | Сообщение # 5
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OK!

I will give you example crossings to relate to me later.
Just now I will put together explanation so you can identify our fish, and then we will talk about crossings, ok?

biggrin

Добавлено (14.02.2011, 07:35)
---------------------------------------------
Hello!

Here you can see the result of red and yellow colors on European Base body colors. You can see where they appear and not, and where they are reduced. They are result of numerous crossings in more than hundred years of European breeding.

All information on internet is not correct - not even from Europe. Please only look att newest information or you will be mislead or dissapointed and confused.

Greetings from Christina

EDIT:
Error corrected, 2011-02-14

Прикрепления: rdgul_standardt.pdf(80.9 Kb)


Сообщение отредактировал christinag - Вторник, 15.02.2011, 00:55
 
genetika-guppyДата: Понедельник, 14.02.2011, 13:29 | Сообщение # 6
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Quote (christinag)
Just now I will put together explanation so you can identify our fish, and then we will talk about crossings, ok?

I'm sorry, I will discuss only the real crossing with the real photos of parents. biggrin

 
christinagДата: Вторник, 15.02.2011, 00:58 | Сообщение # 7
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Why?

This is systematic. It should be easy for you. happy

Hi from Christina

EDIT:
I have corrected a minor error on the first table. I removed it and replaced it with the corrected version in my first message.

 
genetika-guppyДата: Четверг, 17.02.2011, 09:42 | Сообщение # 8
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Quote (christinag)
Why?

Because I am a scientist and I trust only the results of practical experiment, not fantasies, drawn on paper. cool

What is the meaning of this table, if in practice it can not be used because of serious errors that it contains? biggrin

 
christinagДата: Пятница, 18.02.2011, 01:30 | Сообщение # 9
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Hello Sergey!

Quote
Because I am a scientist and I trust only the results of practical experiment, not fantasies, drawn on paper
.

This is a good attitude, that I support fully. I am also scientist, as well as guppy-breeder.

Quote
What is the meaning of this table, if in practice it can not be used because of serious errors that it contains?

This is not a good attitude for a scientist. The purpose of this table was to create a base for discussions and understanding. It might as well have contained fotographic pictures, but this would have confused the base for the duscussion. There are too many factors in an animal. Here there are only two factors present, in combination with a known factor, the European guppy Base Body colors. Any serious scientific discussion starts this way. How else can we learn?

To stand on top and disregard everyone else is not scientific competence. It is simply rude.

There is no error in this visualisation. The problem is probably in your understanding of our naming of the colors? I have read some of the russian discussions in this forum, and they contain numerous errors about your interpretation of our system. I am sorry, but this is true. You have also found bad information in german internet, that you have quoted. Many errors as result of this! cool

If you consider there is an error in the red-yellow-table, please name one and we can discuss it! This was my purpose. I already know the European Base Body names are practiced in Russian guppycontests, so they cannot be all that wrong biggrin

Hi from Christina.

 
genetika-guppyДата: Суббота, 19.02.2011, 00:05 | Сообщение # 10
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Quote (christinag)
This is a good attitude, that I support fully. I am also scientist, as well as guppy-breeder.

Thus do here if you are a true scholar, then let to discusse this problem by using case studies (the results of crossing), rather than draw pretty pictures and think of a table from the head. There is a Russian table, and yet no one gave any practical evidence of errors in it. We wait it from our european and other collegues but we get words only.

I think you do not need to explain that the European table was written by amateurs guppies do not have adequate education in biology and genetics, and was based on outdated material, which, in turn, was obtained on a limited breeding material. biggrin

Quote (christinag)
To stand on top and disregard everyone else is not scientific competence. It is simply rude.

Quote (christinag)
Many errors as result of this!

I think these mistakes are not significant. No need to exaggerate.

If you think that it is not - please give examples.

Quote (christinag)
he problem is probably in your understanding of our naming of the colors?

No Christina. We are know European table very good becouse we used it long long time. Problem in breeders knowledges level only. It is my opinion.

Example with you. Foto with Albino with Transparent Base body color by Vladimir Storozhev was show 100% lack of pigment - you wrote - not good foto quality.

This is not serious. sad

That's why I want to reiterate that I will discuss the topic only on condition of bringing you the results of interbreeding. Only practice can confirm a theory and I do not see any reason to invent a hypothesis when it is possible to perform an experiment, analyze results and to answer all questions.

Sorry, but this is my final opinion. I do not have enough free time to discuss the fantasy...
I am not Philip Shaddock cool

Propose an experiment to check our table. Let's take the two different clear strains with different Base body color, and obtain two generations (F2 more then 200 fry). I will predict all phenotypes before crossing and you do the same. Compare the results. biggrin

 
genetika-guppyДата: Суббота, 19.02.2011, 00:10 | Сообщение # 11
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Quote (christinag)
If you consider there is an error in the red-yellow-table

Yellow and red pigments are inherited independently. You can check it by crossing of yellow and red strains.

Red comes from the yellow, but the pigment cells are also different - xantophores and eritrophores.

I think this is sufficient biggrin

 
christinagДата: Суббота, 19.02.2011, 03:57 | Сообщение # 12
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Hi,

Quote
Yellow and red pigments are inherited independently. You can check it by crossing of yellow and red strains.

Red comes from the yellow, but the pigment cells are also different - xantophores and eritrophores.

There are scientific studies that claim that red and yellow pigments can come in same pigmentcell. This is why Europeans do not differentiate here. Can you show me a study that proves this is not the case, please?

I can see same colors that you can on the fish - I can see lots of beautiful yellow fish with no red. The problem is that we do not have the scientific proof for what we see! Can you name a source for me?

Another problem is that homozygot fish can sometimes show (fenotype) little reddish color, when heterozygot can not do that. Example: Red Neon (Coral Red) exists on Blue2 (European violet bluish Base body color). In heterozygot form this fish produces only yellow, and becomes fenotypical green. In homozygot form the same fish produces yellow but also a little red, and fish becomes fenotypical turqoise in color. These fish are called Turqoise and Lazuli (some call them Coral or Neon Green and Mint Green).

Blue2 can therefore produce microscopic amounts of red, but it only comes out if provoked (whith Red Neon in homozygot form from both X and Y)). There have not been many cases in Europe, where fish can actually only produce yellow OR red. Therefore we have not research on that topic.

Hi from Christina

Сообщение отредактировал christinag - Суббота, 19.02.2011, 04:01
 
Форум / Forum » Poecilia reticulata Peters 1859 (English-speaking forum / англоязычный форум) » Genetics » The complete European Body Base color table
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