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Result of crosses of Albino and Transparent base body color - Форум / ForumResult of crosses of Albino and Transparent base body color - Форум / Forum
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Форум / Forum » Poecilia reticulata Peters 1859 (English-speaking forum / англоязычный форум) » Genetics » Result of crosses of Albino and Transparent base body color
Result of crosses of Albino and Transparent base body color
genetika-guppyДата: Пятница, 14.08.2009, 16:56 | Сообщение # 1
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Parrents



All F1



I would like to ask our foreign experts why the offspring of fish homozygous on the basis of albinism and fish with a transparent base body color and no cover - all guppys with gray base body color.
And it is not time to correct the age-old mistake, transmitted by word of mouth, and the albino delete from the list of base body colors.

From fish in the picture (fish homozygous for the above specified characteristics), all offspring have gray base body color.
 
pshaddockДата: Пятница, 14.08.2009, 20:51 | Сообщение # 2
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People in Asia and North America, and scientists in the world at large, do not use the base body system. And this is a good reason why. The base body system describes the guppy at the phenotypical level. It does not describe the guppy at the cellular or molecular level. Therefore it is easily subject to error. In all areas of the world, with the exception of Europe and Russia, and in all of science, this question is not asked because the base body system is simply not used.
Philip
 
genetika-guppyДата: Пятница, 14.08.2009, 21:57 | Сообщение # 3
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Quote (pshaddock)
People in Asia and North America, and scientists in the world at large, do not use the base body system.

Incorrect Philip!

So much Asian guppybreeders use base body colors system and albino in selection.

Best guppy breeds from Asia in the World (and Russia too) tongue

 
pshaddockДата: Пятница, 14.08.2009, 22:03 | Сообщение # 4
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Anyway, I was just pointing out that your question needs to be more specifically addressed to people who actually use the base body system.
Philip
 
genetika-guppyДата: Пятница, 14.08.2009, 22:06 | Сообщение # 5
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We're sorry that we offended vulnerable experts.

But we are for truth and against double standards. cool

If anyone in the world does not understand this. This is not mean that we should be silent and accept the lie. wink

 
pshaddockДата: Суббота, 15.08.2009, 00:20 | Сообщение # 6
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You're hilarious Sergey smile
 
genetika-guppyДата: Суббота, 15.08.2009, 00:27 | Сообщение # 7
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Quote (pshaddock)
You're hilarious Sergey

I am hereby!!!

 
genetika-guppyДата: Суббота, 15.08.2009, 00:42 | Сообщение # 8
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When you will use 13.000 gallons in own fishroom as my guppyfriend Vladimir Storozhev and will have so much resultes of crosses I think you will argue more reasonably
 
christinagДата: Воскресенье, 06.02.2011, 10:21 | Сообщение # 9
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Hi everybody!

This thread is alittle old, but we can talk anyway. This not a very complicated question. Scientists and hobbypeople everywhere are aware of the existence of different biochemical reasons for melanine-deficiencies. Here we have an example of possible complications if we cross lines we dont know what background they have.

I can offer you these explanations:

Genetic explanation:
The albinotic allele is not the same in the albino and the transparent fish. The breeding result is heterozygot on both traits! Ergo sum = wild type.

Hobby laymans explanation:
The transparent guppy is a result of a cross from a Lutino and the albino is a true albino. Or the other way around. The result is the same in the F1-generation. Two different biochemical traits make the resulting fish heterozygot wildtype!

You may have a problem with this because of the fact that albinos are recessive and therefore homozygot, but remember - the offspring is not! It recieves the functioning allele from one of the parents, and the other functioning allele from the other parent! Thus, the offspring is no longer homozygote albinotic and can produce melanine.

Hi from Christina, Sweden

Сообщение отредактировал christinag - Воскресенье, 06.02.2011, 10:47
 
genetika-guppyДата: Понедельник, 07.02.2011, 21:25 | Сообщение # 10
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Hi dear Christina!

After develop of the new Russian table base colors with color genetics has become a lot clearer:

http://genetika-guppy.my1.ru/blog/2009-08-23-9

http://genetika-guppy.my1.ru/forum/9-53-1

I draw your attention that the Russian table of Base body colors genes reflects only part of the colored genes of guppies!!!

Albinism (despite its recessive) can coexist with any Base body color does not change its genetics.

Crossing albinos (who have to genetics Gray Bse body color) with clear guppies we get all wild (domindnt), becouse it is independent group of guppy color genes (Albino, Lutino, Hypermelanism etc - it is not Base body color genes).

 
christinagДата: Вторник, 08.02.2011, 08:54 | Сообщение # 11
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Hello Sergey!

Quote
I draw your attention that the Russian table of Base body colors genes reflects only part of the colored genes of guppies!!!

Hello Sergey!

Yes, I understand that. We have the same in Europe. We only consider some of the possible genetic markers for "color display".

Of course, any biocemical difference that results in color variation, may also have other biological functions. The color is only primary for our human interest in hobbybreeding.

Quote
Albinism (despite its recessive) can coexist with any Base body color does not change its genetics.

Agreed. I think happy We still put it in the exhibition tables in the way we do.

Quote
Crossing albinos (who have to genetics Gray Bse body color) with clear guppies we get all wild (domindnt), becouse it is independent group of guppy color genes (Albino, Lutino, Hypermelanism etc - it is not Base body color genes).

I see - just a different way to name it.

European view on this is that the tyrosinase synthetisation is not compeltely inhibited when mate has other damage (on other place of the genetic allele). The offspring is heterozygote on both damages. Neither damage is on heterolog autosom. They are on homolog autosom.

Hi from Christina

Сообщение отредактировал christinag - Вторник, 08.02.2011, 08:59
 
genetika-guppyДата: Четверг, 10.02.2011, 00:01 | Сообщение # 12
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Quote (christinag)
Yes, I understand that. We have the same in Europe. We only consider some of the possible genetic markers for "color display".

Of course, any biocemical difference that results in color variation, may also have other biological functions. The color is only primary for our human interest in hobbybreeding.

Exactly!!! smile

Quote (christinag)
We still put it in the exhibition tables in the way we do.

Albinism is not Base body color geneticly. You can check it easy.
Cross Blond and Albino (with Gray BAse body color genetics) - both parrents are recessive - you get 100% Gray Base body color in F1!!!! It is impossible?
No problem! biggrin Check it!!!

Quote (christinag)
I see - just a different way to name it.
European view on this is that the tyrosinase synthetisation is not compeltely inhibited when mate has other damage (on other place of the genetic allele). The offspring is heterozygote on both damages. Neither damage is on heterolog autosom. They are on homolog autosom.

Of course, becouse albinism is not Base body color geneticly. biggrin
Different groups of genes - not interection directly as Base body color genes, for example.

Remember two basic rules of Russian Base body color system:

1. Recessive alleles of each gene reduces the amount of color pigment granules, which are coded by the formation of these same genes, and the phenotype of color almost does not occur.

Ie if the genotype, for example, mm GG EE XX, it reduces the size of granules of melanin in melanofores and the fish is not a black and gray, in any color - as well as Base body colors as Secondary sex colors.

2. The more recessive alleles of genes in the color genotype, the smaller the quantity of pigment cells.

Thus, the ratio of dominant and recessive alleles of 4 genes leads to the appearance of all possible phenotypes in Base body colors and Secondary sex colors.

DIRECT INTERACTION BETWEEN ALL 4 BASE BODY COLORS!!!
NO DIRECT INTERACTION BETWEEN ALBINO GENE AND BASE BODY COLOR SYSTEM!!!

 
genetika-guppyДата: Четверг, 10.02.2011, 00:16 | Сообщение # 13
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I've handled a lot as a result of guppy crossing from our russian guppy breeders, and from the western scientific articles (including article by Dr. Kempkes) by the method of genetic analysis and concluded that the development of albinism and luteism meet two independent genes located on different chromosomes.

Wild (black eyes) - A- Lu-

Lutino (WREA) - A- lu lu

Albino (RREA) - aa Lu- or aa lu lu

My evidence about Albino and Lutino genetics I present here:

http://genetika-guppy.my1.ru/forum/2-253-1

I wrote e-mail to Dr. Kempkes (Germany) with results of my additional genetics analysis of his work and he agree with me... biggrin

This article you can download from here:

http://genetika-guppy.my1.ru/load....-1-0-24

 
christinagДата: Четверг, 10.02.2011, 04:59 | Сообщение # 14
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Hello Sergey!

Good talking to you! We can discover the differences.

Quote

DIRECT INTERACTION BETWEEN ALL 4 BASE BODY COLORS!!!
NO DIRECT INTERACTION BETWEEN ALBINO GENE AND BASE BODY COLOR SYSTEM!!!

Aha, this is what you think. I am not sure I understand exactly (because of bad translation) what you are saying. I think you are saying that this is argument AGAINST that Albinos or Lutinos ar Base body colors.

But in Europe we use this as argument FOR being true Base body color!?!

Strange happy

The thing is: If Albino or Lutino guppy carries for example blue secondary sex color it will perhaps not show it in F1. And it may perhaps not show it in F236 either. But when crossed with Wild grey or any other color, it will produce fenotype offspring with blue secondary sex color. We in Europe consider this proof of that Albino or Lutino are Base body colors. It can carry the fenotype hidden gene for a long time, until expression is biochemically possible. Snakeskin-pattern will be shown as white pattern against skintone.

Same goes for example (our European) Blue base body color. It can carry red patterns invisible for XXXXX generations, until they can express fenotypically again. This is exactly the same for Albinos or any other Body base color. Hobby breeders are baffeled, but we scientists know why wink

I will have to open a thread here on this topic, and we can discuss this there biggrin

I know Michael Kempkes also. He is a fellow clubcamerade of mine. I have translated his articles and species-descriptions into several languages. I have read the investigation in your link and also seen some specimen of the lines he used. I know some of the breeders. I agree with his report. Is it possible, that you have misread him? He says: "Lutino is autosomal recessive base color". The different spots go either visual or invisible, according to Body base color.

I want to point something out for you: He did not use scientifically proven Lutinos. He took some hobby-specimen! They have been called Lutinos by Hobby-people, but not PROVEN 100% Lutino. This particular discussion is still going on. We do not know, if they are Lutino biochemically.

Second, it is also important to know, that his number of specimens does not meet scientifical standards. Any outcome is of bad statistical quality. He also states in his report, that the outcome can differ because of problems like poor health and so on. This taints the outcome. Numbers are low!

I also like to point out, that genes that control pigmentation are not exclusively located on y-kromosome, like he states in his report. There are two or three other places involved in color production. Mainly they control secondary sex-color on males, but also melanine-production in general. ==== Melanine production is something we want to include in our category "Base-body-color".

In your thread this link:

http://www.guppyseite.de/index.php?content=albinismus
This is a young biology student. He has got many things right, but some things wrong.
He has explained the difference between Albino and Lutino wrong. He has used arguments from the old method of explaining differences between Albinic and Albinoidic, which is a completely different thing! Lutino is NOT same thing as ALBINOIDISM. Indeed there are also female guppys that are born with this, not just males. cool He has also mixed up the pictures of Albino and Lutino. Internet is not a safe source for information! The "Lutino" Guppy has never been tested as far as I know, for biochemical background! This is speculation!

Greetings,
Christina Pawelzik-Ghiasvand

PS
Perhaps useful link:
http://www.pigment.org/genearray_home.asp

 
genetika-guppyДата: Четверг, 10.02.2011, 15:29 | Сообщение # 15
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Quote (christinag)
The "Lutino" Guppy has never been tested as far as I know, for biochemical background! This is speculation!

It is true, but we have so much cross resultes, for example article of Dr. Kempkes and Vladimir Storozhev's breeding work and my genetic analysis of their work. It is evidance too- not biochemical but EVIDENCE. No speculation!
I wait from you other evidence. I think you havn't yet... wink

 
genetika-guppyДата: Четверг, 10.02.2011, 15:51 | Сообщение # 16
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Quote (christinag)
But in Europe we use this as argument FOR being true Base body color!?!

See fotos here:

http://genetika-guppy.my1.ru/forum/51-204-7

What do you mean? Is Albino Base body color now? wink

 
christinagДата: Пятница, 11.02.2011, 04:52 | Сообщение # 17
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Hello!

I have answered in the other thread. Very good to see the photos!

Europeans consider the European "Albino1" and "Lutino" to be Albinos both. They are amelanistic = our criteria.
European "Blond" is also amelanistic but only 50% = our criteria not Albino.
The three types can display other colors than black.
The three types are not related.
All three are considered Base Body colors in Europe.

I think we have to agree - that we disagree happy

I understand this:
In your cross Transparent parent was homozygot in amelanism
In your cross Albino parent was also homozygot in amelanism
But they are different FROM EACH OTHER
Offspring F1 recieves one kromosome (autosomal) from each parent
Offspring F1 never becomes homozygot anything
Their damaged alleles cancel each other out! They become heterozygot Transparent and heterozygote Albino
They look fenotype wildgrey because they are heterozygote two different amelanism.

This is the European way of explainig what happens.

We consider DIFFERENT CAUSE possible for amelanism.

Greetings from Christina

Сообщение отредактировал christinag - Пятница, 11.02.2011, 05:00
 
christinagДата: Пятница, 11.02.2011, 05:59 | Сообщение # 18
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Hello again!

A picture tells more than words biggrin

F1 generation is heterozygote damage 1 (=Transparent)
F1 generation is heterozygote damage 2 (=Albino)
F1 generation is homozygote functional! (grey fenotype)

See picture. What do you think?
Hi from Christina

Прикрепления: 2809624.jpg(461.4 Kb)
 
genetika-guppyДата: Понедельник, 14.02.2011, 13:26 | Сообщение # 19
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My genetics analysis results show that it is independent genes with
different chromosomal location - 2 diferent chromosomes - not 1...

I think it is 2 different genes = 2 different enzymes!!!

 
christinagДата: Вторник, 15.02.2011, 01:09 | Сообщение # 20
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Yes! I think so too. That is why the offspring were wild grey fenotype in F1.
It is easy to prove with crossings.

We are good now. smile

 
genetika-guppyДата: Вторник, 15.02.2011, 15:35 | Сообщение # 21
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Quote (christinag)
That is why the offspring were wild grey fenotype in F1.

Albinism can coexist with any Base body color variants (Gray, Blond, Cream etc) does not change its genetics.

 
ВладимирДата: Вторник, 15.02.2011, 16:55 | Сообщение # 22
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!
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ВладимирДата: Вторник, 15.02.2011, 18:32 | Сообщение # 23
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ошибка в этой плоскости у европейцев лежит
1крест альбиноса со светлой на светлую-все светлые
2крест альбиноса с серой на светлую-все серые
3. 2+2=4
Прикрепления: 8723176.jpg(158.0 Kb) · 0365007.jpg(172.9 Kb)
 
christinagДата: Среда, 16.02.2011, 09:27 | Сообщение # 24
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Hello Sergey!

Quote
Albinism can coexist with any Base body color variants (Gray, Blond, Cream etc) does not change its genetics.

I think you are talkin of epistasia here. Albinism will heterozygot cover other Body Base colors. This is correct. But ONLY for Double-reccessive and Triple-reccessive Body Base Colors. NOT for Wild Grey! This is why crossing-result will become Wild Grey!

And same text in Russian by Google :
Я думаю, что ты говоришь о epistasia здесь. Альбинизм будет heterozygot крышку другого органа основных цветов. Это правильно. Но только на Дважды reccessive и Triple-reccessive органа основных цветов. НЕ диких Серый! Вот почему пересечения результате станет дикой Серый!

Владимир:
Отличные снимки, серый и lutino?.

Quote
ошибка в этой плоскости у европейцев лежит
1крест альбиноса со светлой на светлую-все светлые
2крест альбиноса с серой на светлую-все серые
3. 2+2=4

Это не перевод sad

Пожалуйста, Сергей - говорят на английском языке!

Приветствие от Кристины

 
genetika-guppyДата: Суббота, 19.02.2011, 00:20 | Сообщение # 25
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3 brothers in F2 from cross Albino (with Gray Base body color) and non Albino (with Gray Base body color).

 
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