Genetika-guppy.my1.ru

Incorrect Philip!

So much Asian guppybreeders use base body colors system and albino in selection.

Best guppy breeds from Asia in the World (and Russia too)

But we are for truth and against double standards.

If anyone in the world does not understand this. This is not mean that we should be silent and accept the lie.

I am hereby!!!

This thread is alittle old, but we can talk anyway. This not a very complicated question. Scientists and hobbypeople everywhere are aware of the existence of different biochemical reasons for melanine-deficiencies. Here we have an example of possible complications if we cross lines we dont know what background they have.

I can offer you these explanations:

Genetic explanation:
The albinotic allele is not the same in the albino and the transparent fish. The breeding result is heterozygot on both traits! Ergo sum = wild type.

Hobby laymans explanation:
The transparent guppy is a result of a cross from a Lutino and the albino is a true albino. Or the other way around. The result is the same in the F1-generation. Two different biochemical traits make the resulting fish heterozygot wildtype!

You may have a problem with this because of the fact that albinos are recessive and therefore homozygot, but remember - the offspring is not! It recieves the functioning allele from one of the parents, and the other functioning allele from the other parent! Thus, the offspring is no longer homozygote albinotic and can produce melanine.

Hi from Christina, Sweden

After develop of the new Russian table base colors with color genetics has become a lot clearer:

http://genetika-guppy.my1.ru/blog/2009-08-23-9

http://genetika-guppy.my1.ru/forum/9-53-1

I draw your attention that the Russian table of Base body colors genes reflects only part of the colored genes of guppies!!!

Albinism (despite its recessive) can coexist with any Base body color does not change its genetics.

Crossing albinos (who have to genetics Gray Bse body color) with clear guppies we get all wild (domindnt), becouse it is independent group of guppy color genes (Albino, Lutino, Hypermelanism etc - it is not Base body color genes).

Yes, I understand that. We have the same in Europe. We only consider some of the possible genetic markers for "color display".

Of course, any biocemical difference that results in color variation, may also have other biological functions. The color is only primary for our human interest in hobbybreeding.

European view on this is that the tyrosinase synthetisation is not compeltely inhibited when mate has other damage (on other place of the genetic allele). The offspring is heterozygote on both damages. Neither damage is on heterolog autosom. They are on homolog autosom.

Hi from Christina

Exactly!!!

Albinism is not Base body color geneticly. You can check it easy.
Cross Blond and Albino (with Gray BAse body color genetics) - both parrents are recessive - you get 100% Gray Base body color in F1!!!! It is impossible?
No problem! Check it!!!

Of course, becouse albinism is not Base body color geneticly.
Different groups of genes - not interection directly as Base body color genes, for example.

Remember two basic rules of Russian Base body color system:

1. Recessive alleles of each gene reduces the amount of color pigment granules, which are coded by the formation of these same genes, and the phenotype of color almost does not occur.

Ie if the genotype, for example, mm GG EE XX, it reduces the size of granules of melanin in melanofores and the fish is not a black and gray, in any color - as well as Base body colors as Secondary sex colors.

2. The more recessive alleles of genes in the color genotype, the smaller the quantity of pigment cells.

Thus, the ratio of dominant and recessive alleles of 4 genes leads to the appearance of all possible phenotypes in Base body colors and Secondary sex colors.

DIRECT INTERACTION BETWEEN ALL 4 BASE BODY COLORS!!!
NO DIRECT INTERACTION BETWEEN ALBINO GENE AND BASE BODY COLOR SYSTEM!!!

Wild (black eyes) - A- Lu-

Lutino (WREA) - A- lu lu

Albino (RREA) - aa Lu- or aa lu lu

My evidence about Albino and Lutino genetics I present here:

http://genetika-guppy.my1.ru/forum/2-253-1

I wrote e-mail to Dr. Kempkes (Germany) with results of my additional genetics analysis of his work and he agree with me...

This article you can download from here:

http://genetika-guppy.my1.ru/load....-1-0-24

Good talking to you! We can discover the differences.

Aha, this is what you think. I am not sure I understand exactly (because of bad translation) what you are saying. I think you are saying that this is argument AGAINST that Albinos or Lutinos ar Base body colors.

But in Europe we use this as argument FOR being true Base body color!?!

Strange

The thing is: If Albino or Lutino guppy carries for example blue secondary sex color it will perhaps not show it in F1. And it may perhaps not show it in F236 either. But when crossed with Wild grey or any other color, it will produce fenotype offspring with blue secondary sex color. We in Europe consider this proof of that Albino or Lutino are Base body colors. It can carry the fenotype hidden gene for a long time, until expression is biochemically possible. Snakeskin-pattern will be shown as white pattern against skintone.

Same goes for example (our European) Blue base body color. It can carry red patterns invisible for XXXXX generations, until they can express fenotypically again. This is exactly the same for Albinos or any other Body base color. Hobby breeders are baffeled, but we scientists know why

I will have to open a thread here on this topic, and we can discuss this there

I know Michael Kempkes also. He is a fellow clubcamerade of mine. I have translated his articles and species-descriptions into several languages. I have read the investigation in your link and also seen some specimen of the lines he used. I know some of the breeders. I agree with his report. Is it possible, that you have misread him? He says: "Lutino is autosomal recessive base color". The different spots go either visual or invisible, according to Body base color.

I want to point something out for you: He did not use scientifically proven Lutinos. He took some hobby-specimen! They have been called Lutinos by Hobby-people, but not PROVEN 100% Lutino. This particular discussion is still going on. We do not know, if they are Lutino biochemically.

Second, it is also important to know, that his number of specimens does not meet scientifical standards. Any outcome is of bad statistical quality. He also states in his report, that the outcome can differ because of problems like poor health and so on. This taints the outcome. Numbers are low!

I also like to point out, that genes that control pigmentation are not exclusively located on y-kromosome, like he states in his report. There are two or three other places involved in color production. Mainly they control secondary sex-color on males, but also melanine-production in general. ==== Melanine production is something we want to include in our category "Base-body-color".

In your thread this link:

http://www.guppyseite.de/index.php?content=albinismus
This is a young biology student. He has got many things right, but some things wrong.
He has explained the difference between Albino and Lutino wrong. He has used arguments from the old method of explaining differences between Albinic and Albinoidic, which is a completely different thing! Lutino is NOT same thing as ALBINOIDISM. Indeed there are also female guppys that are born with this, not just males. He has also mixed up the pictures of Albino and Lutino. Internet is not a safe source for information! The "Lutino" Guppy has never been tested as far as I know, for biochemical background! This is speculation!

Greetings,
Christina Pawelzik-Ghiasvand

PS
Perhaps useful link:
http://www.pigment.org/genearray_home.asp

It is true, but we have so much cross resultes, for example article of Dr. Kempkes and Vladimir Storozhev's breeding work and my genetic analysis of their work. It is evidance too- not biochemical but EVIDENCE. No speculation!
I wait from you other evidence. I think you havn't yet...

See fotos here:

http://genetika-guppy.my1.ru/forum/51-204-7

What do you mean? Is Albino Base body color now?

I have answered in the other thread. Very good to see the photos!

Europeans consider the European "Albino1" and "Lutino" to be Albinos both. They are amelanistic = our criteria.
European "Blond" is also amelanistic but only 50% = our criteria not Albino.
The three types can display other colors than black.
The three types are not related.
All three are considered Base Body colors in Europe.

I think we have to agree - that we disagree

I understand this:
In your cross Transparent parent was homozygot in amelanism
In your cross Albino parent was also homozygot in amelanism
But they are different FROM EACH OTHER
Offspring F1 recieves one kromosome (autosomal) from each parent
Offspring F1 never becomes homozygot anything
Their damaged alleles cancel each other out! They become heterozygot Transparent and heterozygote Albino
They look fenotype wildgrey because they are heterozygote two different amelanism.

This is the European way of explainig what happens.

We consider DIFFERENT CAUSE possible for amelanism.

Greetings from Christina

A picture tells more than words

F1 generation is heterozygote damage 1 (=Transparent)
F1 generation is heterozygote damage 2 (=Albino)
F1 generation is homozygote functional! (grey fenotype)

See picture. What do you think?
Hi from Christina

I think it is 2 different genes = 2 different enzymes!!!

We are good now.

Albinism can coexist with any Base body color variants (Gray, Blond, Cream etc) does not change its genetics.

And same text in Russian by Google :
Я думаю, что ты говоришь о epistasia здесь. Альбинизм будет heterozygot крышку другого органа основных цветов. Это правильно. Но только на Дважды reccessive и Triple-reccessive органа основных цветов. НЕ диких Серый! Вот почему пересечения результате станет дикой Серый!

Владимир:
Отличные снимки, серый и lutino?.

Это не перевод

Пожалуйста, Сергей - говорят на английском языке!

Приветствие от Кристины

3 brothers in F2 from cross Albino (with Gray Base body color) and non Albino (with Gray Base body color).