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Why Phillip Shaddock book is incorrect!!! - Страница 6 - Форум / ForumWhy Phillip Shaddock book is incorrect!!! - Страница 6 - Форум / Forum
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Форум / Forum » Poecilia reticulata Peters 1859 (English-speaking forum / англоязычный форум) » Common questions » Why Phillip Shaddock book is incorrect!!!
Why Phillip Shaddock book is incorrect!!!
ВладимирДата: Среда, 02.06.2010, 18:36 | Сообщение # 126
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так это бол-беды когда самца показывают и фоновую ему придумывают(например хелблау с красным хвостом wacko ),а вот когда фенотиписеский фрагмент просто самки,да еще и некой покровной и другими признаками-это полная беда.
просто видимо забыли ,что фоновая это основной окрас(не что попало видимое на самках) ,с работой аутосомных генов по синтезам пигментов,без воздействия генов других признаков,в том числе и покровного у самок.
по этой причине и светлая у них одна(самки все похожи),но вот только у этих самок синтезы разные работают-ну а так они видимо с одинаковой фоновой sad -для них-вот от суда и появляются ХЕЛБЛАУ С КРАСНЫМИ ХВОСТАМИ,РАЗНЫЕ БЛАУ-КОТОРЫХ ПРИ ОДИНАКОВОМ ПОКРОВНОМ ОКРАСЕ ПОКАЗАТЬ НИ КТО НЕ МОЖЕТ,НУ И ПРОЧИЕ ЧУДЕСА
 
ВладимирДата: Среда, 02.06.2010, 19:11 | Сообщение # 127
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ВОТ И ПОЛУЧАЕТСЯ,ЧТО ЭТИ САМКИ ОДИНАКОВЫ ПО ФОНОВОЙ,НУ ВОТ ТОЛЬКО ПРИ КРЕСТЕ С ОДНИМ САМЦОМ cool -ПОТОМСТВО БУДЕТ РАЗНОЕ-ОТ ЧЕГО БЫ ЭТО МОГЛО БЫТЬ ;).
МОЖНО ЕЩЁ И ДОБАВИТЬ ,ЧТО ЭТИ САМКИ ОТ РАЗНЫХ ЛИНИЙ АЛОЙ РЫБЫ,ТОЛЬКО С РАЗНОЙ НАСЫЩЕНОСТЬЮ АЛОГО ЦВЕТА-ОДНИ ПОЧЕМУ ТО СВЕТЛО-АЛЫЕ,ДРУГИЕ ТЕМНО АЛЫЕ,А ТРЕТЬИ РЫЖЕСТЬ ИМЕЮТ
Прикрепления: 9460840.jpg(60.0 Kb)
 
ВладимирДата: Среда, 02.06.2010, 19:14 | Сообщение # 128
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JSДата: Среда, 02.06.2010, 19:57 | Сообщение # 129
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Владимир,
это всё правиьно, но старая система сложилась исторически и существует десятки лет и изменяется/дополняется с трудом.
А если говорить по существу, то описание фоновых по IKGH используется для разделения по группам и категориям на выставках при оценки рыбы. За сложные/редкие дают добавочные пунткты. А всё остальное вертится вокруг этого.
Генетикой по-науке никто серъезно не занимается...

По этому без объяснений, примеров крестов и таблиц наследования, фото и т.д. дело вперёд не пойдёт.
Поэтому, если использовать для себя втихую, то пойдёт и так, я уверен на 100%.
Потому-что сделана для себя.
А если выходишь на люди, объясни - что это и как это работает или как ты считаешь, это должно работать.

 
ВладимирДата: Среда, 02.06.2010, 20:18 | Сообщение # 130
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biggrin БУДУ В ТИХУЮ РАБОТАТЬ ,НО НА 100%-ОСТАЛЬНЫЕ ПУСТЬ ПО НАУЧНОМУ,СТАРО СЛОЖИВШЕМУСЯ cool
 
JSДата: Среда, 02.06.2010, 21:05 | Сообщение # 131
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Quote (Владимир)
БУДУ В ТИХУЮ РАБОТАТЬ

Владимир,
я не вижу логики: Сергей выставляет таблицу на форумах, приглашает к диалогу, готов ответить на все вопросы... sad
 
ВладимирДата: Среда, 02.06.2010, 21:18 | Сообщение # 132
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И Я НЕ ВИЖУ ЛОГИКИ,КОГДА ЗАКРЫВ ГЛАЗА-ВСЕ В ОДНУ КУЧУ СВАЛИВАЮТ-Я ПО КРАЙНЕЙ МЕРЕ ПОКАЗЫВАЮ И ПЫТАЮСЬ ЧТО ТО РАССКАЗЫВАТЬ,ЧТО И ПОЧЕМУ МОЖЕТ ВХОДИТЬ В ФОНОВУЮ,А ЧТО НЕТ-ОТ АППОНЕНТОВ НИ ОДНОГО ДОКАЗАТЕЛЬНОГО ПРИМЕРА ПРОТИВОРЕЧАЩЕГО ЭТОМУ.
ВИДИМО ПРОСТО СТАРАЯ ДОБРАЯ ЕВРОПА НИЧЕГО ПРОСТО МЕНЯТЬ НЕ ХОЧЕТ-ПОНИМАЕТ ВТИХАРЯ,НО ПУБЛИЧНО НЕ ХОЧЕТ И ОПРОВЕРЖЕНИЙ НЕ ДАЁТ-МОЛ ВЫ РЕБЯТА НЕ ВЕРНО ДУМАЕТЕ-ВОТ ВАМ ПРИМЕРЫ,ВАШЕЙ НЕ ПРАВАТЫ
 
JSДата: Среда, 02.06.2010, 21:30 | Сообщение # 133
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Quote (Владимир)
ОТ АППОНЕНТОВ НИ ОДНОГО ДОКАЗАТЕЛЬНОГО ПРИМЕРА ПРОТИВОРЕЧАЩЕГО ЭТОМУ

Да нет оппонентов, не знают они о существовании таблицы, а если и видели, то не понимают о чём толком идёт речь.
Это с форума: http://www.dgv-forum.de/

Da bin ich aber gespannt.
Mit Fragen ist das nämlich nicht getan.
Da muß der Erfinder der Tafel einen ganzen Komplex selbst darstellen, mit Kreuzungen (die jeder nachvollziehen kann) belegen und das Ganze dann veröffentlichen.

Сообщение отредактировал JS - Среда, 02.06.2010, 21:31
 
ВладимирДата: Среда, 02.06.2010, 21:38 | Сообщение # 134
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ЭТО ОНИ НЕ ПОНИМАЮТ,ЧТО АЛЬБИНИЗМ НЕ ФОНОВАЯ,ИЛИ ПРИЗНАК ПРОЗРАЧНОГО БРЮХА-БЕЛЛА-ПАНДА КОТОРЫЙ И ЧТО ПРИ КРЕСТЕ ИХ МЕЖДУ СОБОЙ НИКОГДА НЕ ПОЛУЧИТСЯ ПРОЗРАЧНОЙ РЫБЫ-НО УТВЕРЖДЕНИЯ ТАКИЕ ВЫДАЮТ-НАРОД ПОЧИТАЕТ И ВПРЯМЬ ПОВЕРИТ
 
genetika-guppyДата: Среда, 02.06.2010, 21:52 | Сообщение # 135
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Quote (JS)
Если я не ошибаюсь, изначально предлaгалось таблицу дополнить информацией, такой как:
макро-фото мальков для 16 фотовых с целью пoказать наличие пигментов,
тоже самое - для взрослых,
привести для каждой фоновой фотографии рыб (самец+самка) для различных пород, привести примеры изменения "покровных окрасов" при изменении фоновой
начать создавать базу данных по породам с указанием известных фактов по генетике/взаимодействию известных генов.
С двумя "слепыми" листами многого не объяснишь...

Якоб, все будет... У нас же хобби, а не работа... Сторожев (и отчасти я сам) проделывает большой объем работы.
Еще журнал над нами висит. + исследования по Эндлерам + общение на иностранных сайтах .

А еще гибридизация была в планах еще в апреле... wacko

Не успеваем за всем...

А с первого взглада наверное кажется, что работа не движется совсем... cool

 
JSДата: Среда, 02.06.2010, 22:24 | Сообщение # 136
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Да понимаю я всё,
пытаюсь только объяснить, что без элементарных примеров "не посвящённому" трудно вникнуть в суть, понять принцип, какие уж тут оппоненты.
В таблице, например, даже в пояснениях не указано, что приведённые обозначения не совпадают с принятыми обозначениями по IKGH, поэтому всё воспринимается дословно.
 
ВладимирДата: Среда, 02.06.2010, 22:56 | Сообщение # 137
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верно-не посвящённому трудно понять,но к сожалению не хотят понимать посвящённые,ну а уж и если они не посвящённые-милости просим на просвящение wink
 
genetika-guppyДата: Среда, 02.06.2010, 23:20 | Сообщение # 138
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Quote (JS)
В таблице, например, даже в пояснениях не указано, что приведённые обозначения не совпадают с принятыми обозначениями по IKGH, поэтому всё воспринимается дословно.

А вот это не совсем так - в таблице указаны старые и новые названия фоновых окрасов...

 
ВладимирДата: Среда, 02.06.2010, 23:38 | Сообщение # 139
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да все там понятно-Игорь и Якоб разобрались,а Шедок,Гернот,Шумахер итд вдруг не разобрались-наверное у них опыта меньше,или менее просвящённые они cool
 
genetika-guppyДата: Среда, 02.06.2010, 23:51 | Сообщение # 140
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да все там понятно-Игорь и Якоб разобрались,а Шедок,Гернот,Шумахер итд вдруг не разобрались

Игорь и Якоб - русские ребята - им понятен форум. Кроме того они могут в любой момент получить любую информацию из первоисточника. Инокомыслящим намного сложнее.

Так что Якоб на мой взгляд тут прав...

 
ВладимирДата: Среда, 02.06.2010, 23:58 | Сообщение # 141
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слово -альбинизм- на любом языке понятен и первоисточник не нужен-нужно просто рыбу скрестить-проблема в другом
 
genetika-guppyДата: Четверг, 03.06.2010, 00:33 | Сообщение # 142
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проблема в другом

а вот это уже "ближе к телу, как говорил ГиДэ Мопасан" biggrin

 
genetika-guppyДата: Четверг, 03.06.2010, 01:42 | Сообщение # 143
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Филипп не выдержал и написал нам с Грегом вот такое письмо:

"You have shown the people of the world that you are not an honourable man. I have responded to your attacks on my character with dignity. I have refused to play your ugly game. People are writing me and thanking me for standing up to you with class and for speaking the truth. Greg Dickman brings dishonor to your forum. He is a man who speaks against his country. He is a man who dishonours his wife. This is your friend? Nobody respects you. It does not matter if your table has even a little truth to it. You have shown that you will say and do almost anything to force your table on people. Not even Dickman believes in your table. He is using you and I will predict some day he will say the very things about you that he has said about me. You do damage to the hobby. But the hobby will recover because reason and truth are on my side."

Даже не знаю, что сказать... Улыбнуло happy

 
GregДата: Четверг, 03.06.2010, 02:45 | Сообщение # 144
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: D

Thursday, June 03, 2010 ---- Sad Day.

It seems Philip Shaddock has eliminated all platforms of rebuttal, so I concede total defeat. An article I had sent in for publishing was given to Philip, evidently, and now he has published his own on the Guppy Designer website.

I can only now move we push for renaming of guppy "Shaddock Livebearer" Poecilia Shaddockii.

Unfortunately, this is not one of my jokes. Here is my simple post on guppies.com http://www.guppies.com/forums....47.html

And here is Mr. Shaddock's article today: http://www.guppydesigner.com/ Full of lies.

So, you see, friends, I was not wrong. Things went exactly as I predicted.

Just as my article will never see light of day, now, so, too, Russian Body Base Table is defeated also. World will now never know truth. : (: (: (

Let us now see if he will attempt to explain my Blue Lace Snakeskin guppies genetics. What hurts most is that my article will never be published, thanks to Mr. Shaddock. I have nothing left to say. He must have spies everywhere for him to get ahold of my article. : (

Both Kerry Collier and Anthony Fischinger have copies of my article, and I still have email with article attachment to prove what has happened.

Сообщение отредактировал Greg - Четверг, 03.06.2010, 16:03
 
christinagДата: Воскресенье, 06.02.2011, 08:46 | Сообщение # 145
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Hello fellow breeders and scientists in Russia and overseas!

After some problems registering. I finally figured out how to post to this forum =) This is very exciting for me, and I hope we can have some great discussions, both on theoretical and practical level! Been having guppies since mid 60:ies.

Quote
Philip Shaddock is a very intelligent, pleasant man. At first, one thinks, "This person is excellent!
It is only through long and intensive discourse with him that the truth emerges.
Philip will remove statements made against him, or attack people on forums where people cannot defend themselves.
He used the Guppy Wiki (English) as a net to haul in information on strains for his book from hobbyists around the World. Once he achieved his goal, he took it down.

I agree on all of this, as I experienced this first hand for a while. First he sets up forums where he fishes for information, then he closes it and opens another for buyers of a suddenly appearing book ?!?! He serves himself with informations of others, digests them in a fashion and puts them out for sale.

Quote
Third, is it not somehow morally wrong to cast a net out over the internet, collect everyones' anecdotal information, package it up in a book, and then turn around and charge the very source of the information for that information? His disclaimer about "not doing scientific research" is fine print.
...
I protested, as I wrote the article on the German Red Lace Snakeskin as a resource for everyone. Philip claimed he wrote it !!!!!!!!!! ^ _ ^ This is no honest man.

Just what I am talking about. This is appalling!

Quote
I was banned from guppies.com when I brought this to the World's attention
...
It is simple: Philip Shaddock is not qualified to write a book on guppy genetics,
...
It seems Philip Shaddock has eliminated all platforms of rebuttal
..
Is not America the land of "Free Speech"? Well, some of us have to go to Russia!

Youre not the only one to be troubled by those things. Amazing that an intelligent man like this has to resort to such actions. I have nevertheless tried to keep an open dialogue with him.

Ok, ok, now that we have pinned Philip Shadock into the ground, lets be productive and go on with our lives. Bickering over one single person isnt very fruitful in the long run. Simply a waste of time. I suggest we go on and try to apply the russian table on the European and lets see what happens! And then vice versa, and see what happens. And then, after gaining basic mutual understandig, we can start talking about the biochemical background. Only then can we gain understanding. Perhaps we can further the hobby with some new insights? I will not idolize neither Philip Shaddock nor Vladimir Storozhev, simply put together scientific understanding and fusing it to a viable truth. As is at this time.

We are not perfect. If we want to search for round things we might construct a grid that catches all balls. But we have by no means succeeded to catch all that can be found. All pancakes, dishes and slices of sausages fly through, because they are flat! And so we dye our investigation, before we even began to contemplate on possible explanations of the outcome. All serious scientists have to battle with this dilemma.

As I interpret the russian table, it seems to differentiate two different xantofores. Ok, we dont do that in Europe, but lets go there for discussions sake. In my personal opinion, the difference between different xantofore pigments are in quantity, not in quality. So why differentiate? But lets follow the russian model anyway and take a look at the possibilities. That model may actually offer different (European) albino body base colors as well as blue ones, a model for classification, that says more than the current European one. Congratulations!

But there are problems ... If we put some of our European body ground colors in the correct boxes of the russian table, some of them in turn end up in the same box. This is not satisfactory, because they are genetically different, and also offer different difficulties in hobby breeding. But this is not a bad thing. It merely shows us, that both are correct and functioning, and need some further work, to match up to todays knowledge in breeding as well as in genetics. Because they (must) go hand in hand =)

This thread contains some interesting questions, that I wish to address.

Quote
Mr.Shaddock complains of IFGA Guppies being too inbred. Does he have a scientific study which tells what an ACCEPTABLE INBREEDING COEFFICIENT is for guppies? NO Every species different. 25% Inbreeding Coefficient is fine for dogs - maybe too much for humans!

Not for guppies specificly, but I think the ones that exist are universal (mathematical) formulas. I have discussed inbreeding with PhSh some years ago. Inbreeding itself is not the problem (in my opinion) the presence of bad (usually recessive) genes are the problem. If they arent there, then there is no problem. When he says inbreeding, he must mean something else. Perhaps his ideals of the guppys appearance are not met. In my opinion he might be right in some cases, but lately I have sensed a change in attitude overseas about some traits. So I have no problems with how americans in general breed their guppies. There is insight about decreased mobility because of too big fins for example and so on. So I see no big problem.

In addition to this I have discussed for example Håkan Turessons articles about inbreeding statistics with him, and coupled that with statistic studies of channel catfish and other farmed fish for example. There are real numbers for this, for a population not to become inbred. I think this was 50 pairs, but to be sure I would have to look it up. I dont remember PS:s reaction to that, but he at least took up my translation of Håkans studies on his website. I assume, there is no associated study done on guppies, who would fund that?

Quote
according to Russian scientists, there is only one main type of pigment cells - guanophores. These cells contain guanine crystals that change color from white to blue, depending on the angle of rotation of the crystal.
As leucophores then my opinion is that these pigment cells are responsible for the synthesis of Pearl (Platinum), which is not applicable to the Base body color table. It is independent gene as Japanise Blue.

Only one main type? Please specify what you mean.
THIS IS INTERESTING! We have totally different wiew on this. I will have to elaborate on this somewhere else, because it would bust this thread. Perhaps you might want to read my articles 2003-2006 in Der Guppybrief, Svenska Guppybrev, DGLZ-Rundschau etz. on guppy pigments and how they are formed. They have scientific foundation, not only breeding practices. I really dont think they are that outdated yet either.

As I am reviewing the russian table, it did not at first occur to me, that the iridofores could be considered so important, as to give them relevance in body ground coloring. It took a while until I realized that, and it amazed me. Europeans dont recognize this, mainly because we have not found any guppy body ground color that cannot show theese pigments! Even the uttermost albinotish guppy bred (noone is ever albino totails) that which we call the "Albino-white" has ability to produce iridofores. This is an optical conclusion, and we Europeans therefore cannot see any candidates for "gg" in accordance to the russian table. Biochemically this would probably also be very difficult to survive, if really all this is met.

This was a long post

Добавлено (06.02.2011, 08:24)
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Yippee, finally posting here worked for me smile

Quote
The "last male sperm" theory has been disproven, as females can reject sperm from recent males. Your mystery is solved.

Seperating sexes at a very early age (prior to 3-4 weeks) is, IMO, very important. Most breeders do not do this.

Scientific setting, following the "scientific method" with controis, etc. is very important for the conclusive evidence.

Im sorry Greg, but have you really read the report? Where does it disprove this theory? I cannot find anything in the report that does that. Nowhere does it investigate the success of incoming sperms in sense of a timeline. Furthermore, nowhere in the report, is anything that disproves "the last male sperm" theory as a result of any conclusion in the report or can be read between the lines anywhere in the report.

On the contrary, there have been some hobbyist tests carried out quite carefully, that have proven the theory in practice. Those tests show a decreasing procentage with increasing time, from earlyer matings. I support this theory fully, because I have from time to time seen similar results in my own tanks since I began breeding guppies in the 60:ies. I have not tested the exact procentage, but I consider them to be plausible at least.

Some breeders do not use virgin females, because it its easier to discard a few broods and then set up the female with the desired male candidate. And for that matter, the male carries sperms already soon after birth, and can copulate before the gonopodium is fully developed to our eyes. This has happened to me several times, by males of two (!) weeks of age, and I am not the only breeder to account for that fact.

The report offers proof of some interesting speculations, like if some colors are more attractive for the female guppy, or if she prefers fitter males or new (strange to them) males. Wery interesting, but offers no input on the question of the timeline contra number of offspring.

CG

Добавлено (06.02.2011, 08:28)
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Continuing writing ... I hope you dont think Im spamming this site happy

:

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::: Blue Cobra

Im sorry, that is not a cobra sad

I see a snakeskin guppy, but NOT COBRA.
Cobra or King Cobra is a long forgotten (?) snakeskin type with --- yes thats right --- cobra eyes on the side! This means two dark patches on each side of the body, along with the snakeskin pattern! This is extremely difficult to maintain. Especially if your aim is to produce three exactly alike specimens for an exhibition .... I bred those for some ten years in the nineties, when they started to dissapear. In fact, mine were the last Cobras that I have seen. The snakeskin pattern had to be evenly distributed, and specimens without Tigrinus or zebrinus were preferred. Personally, I find these stripes very decorative, but in the case of the cobra, they took some away of the effect.

So please do not use the term cobra, if you have no cobra-eyes on the fish!

Best Regards,
Christina G

Добавлено (06.02.2011, 08:46)
---------------------------------------------
Hi again!
Hoping someone manages to read all of this happy

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The middle pictures of the Blue Lace Snakeskins are spectacular. Where you find?
Japan Blue will give blue background color to body. I have seen this done on German website.

Ehm.... Japan Blue is not a background colour in the russian definition (as I interpret it). It is a color on the top, applicable on any base body color. There also exist two Japan Blue traits, one of them being a little darker and more violet. In every JB-strain, there will appear some specimen of the darker one. Reasons for that are not fully investigated (not by Håkan Turesson or Annett Wolf, who first noticed this either, as far as I know).

Quote
But fins? Are Sergey and Vladimer suggesting Asian Blau for fins from, say, Blue Grass or Blue Glass guppy?
Blue Galaxy also exist.

To further confuse things, there are two european blue (not according to russian table but the european) body base colors, of which one is silvery and dull, the other a little violet ... And then we have the body base color "hellblau" or light blue also, which are very famous and shown as price winners with different lace patterns. The "Hellblau" are really fantastic seen as Blue laces/Blue Grass /Blue Glass!

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My understanding is that Asian Blau (Blue Glass) will only turn red into blue if heterozygous. Homozygous Asian Blau = no pattern. No lace, no snakeskin, no cobra with Homozygous Asian Blau. Am I correct?

I cant answer the question. I think you may be confusing something here. Or perhaps I am, I dont know what you mean. The body color Blau or Blau2 (=Asian Blau) are both recessive, they have no expression at all in heterozygot form. The animals will display grey = Wild grey color as a fenotype. They will however display the snakeskin pattern as well as spots on the fins.

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3 Blaus: Asian Hellblau European Blau I have never seen example of European Blau.

We do not have something called european blau, we call all blue ones for blau. Some people on the internet have started to name Blau 2 into "Asian Blau", which is very confusing for people who breed "Japan blue" patterns. Two different things. Blue 3 was previously called "Hellblau" or light blue, by their breeders. Our "Silver" is similar, but has darker scales, much like our "gold" (prevoiusly called "Bronce"). Please note --- I used European names here. The russian names are not the same. And by the way, all of these blau I have bred on Endlers as well. I might have some photos.

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My Blue Lace SS are example of Blue that CANNOT be explained by MMGGeexx. No way. I tried many times to "paint guppy" with Blue and HB Blue Delta.

I understand why, you need to put in more letters in your table happy

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Guanine confuse and mix up Melanin drawing of Lace Tail pattern. Violet Phang discover this in scientific paper. Blue and Lace Tail do NOT go together, unless some kind of Blau (Asian or Hellblau) present.

I think you might be wrong there. This has nothing to do with the body ground color --- in our European way to wiew this appearance. Blue is the most recessive of all covering colors, that is all. And it simply doesnt look very good on a wild grey or (european) gold guppy cool

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90% of Moscow is Blue, Green, or Purple; and, yet, we see only Yellow Metal(Moscow) Lace Snakeskin, and Red Metal (Moscow) Lace Snakeskin.... Where are Green Metal Lace Snakeskin, or Blue Metal Lace Snakeskin, or Purple Metal Lace Snakeskin? NO where!

Snakeskin can be bred on all body ground colors! It just not makes sense because of lack of decorative appearance. And metalic (European) will cover it entirely, but that is another matter.

Quote
Fullred:

Huuuuh, a topic for some interesting discussions =) This is acheived by many crossings ans searches for genes that covers spots here and there with red color (okay, I am talking in very simplified terms now). Thats why this is so difficult to get a really full red specimen. Lot of work and attention to details.

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The Russian Table makes a step forward in recognizing SILVER as a base body color, and announcing patterns as sex-linked and colors as autosomal. Research on Albino not being base body color also important.

Nothing new to us Europeans. But perhaps you missed that. Albino not being base body color is new to me, how so? In our opinion they fit the requirements very well. A deficiency to produce pigments. For whatever reason. All but wild grey are mutations (or crosses thereof) anyhow.

Phuuhh!
I sincerely hope, that someone manages to read all of this biggrin
My onlu excuse for writing this much is that I am home with a cold and got nothing better to do happy

Bye for now,
Christina G

 
genetika-guppyДата: Понедельник, 07.02.2011, 22:58 | Сообщение # 146
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Hi, Christina! Thank you for your interest in our site. There are many problems in understanding the genetics of color in guppies. As a biologist myself, I believe that one of the main criteria of truth is an experiment. More precisely, numerous experiments in crossing different species of guppies. Russian table of Base body color genes was made of 100% on the basis of practical data on numerous progeny, many times. We tried to combine European and Russian table, but it is not possible. You must choose one of them and explain it correctly. And as you know, it's our table.

New understanding of guppy's color genes:

4 groups of guppy's color genes:

1) Base body color genes - Black (Melanin), Yellow (Lutein), Red (Astaxantin) and White (Guanin)

2) SubBase body color genes - Albino (a), Lutino (lu) and Hypermelanism (Hm)

3) Secondary Sex Colors - Japanise Blue, Neon and Orange Carotinoids (Orange pigments - from food only)

4) Above Secondary Sex Colors - Pearl (Platinum)

You can check all our information by guppy crosses... biggrin

Quote (christinag)
Only one main type? Please specify what you mean.
THIS IS INTERESTING! We have totally different wiew on this. I will have to elaborate on this somewhere else, because it would bust this thread. Perhaps you might want to read my articles 2003-2006 in Der Guppybrief, Svenska Guppybrev, DGLZ-Rundschau etz. on guppy pigments and how they are formed. They have scientific foundation, not only breeding practices. I really dont think they are that outdated yet either.
As I am reviewing the russian table, it did not at first occur to me, that the iridofores could be considered so important, as to give them relevance in body ground coloring. It took a while until I realized that, and it amazed me. Europeans dont recognize this, mainly because we have not found any guppy body ground color that cannot show theese pigments! Even the uttermost albinotish guppy bred (noone is ever albino totails) that which we call the "Albino-white" has ability to produce iridofores. This is an optical conclusion, and we Europeans therefore cannot see any candidates for "gg" in accordance to the russian table. Biochemically this would probably also be very difficult to survive, if really all this is met.

Guanophores are not "Optical conclusion". We can see their by microscope. cool

Quote (christinag)
Im sorry, that is not a cobra

I think it is sleng only wink

 
christinagДата: Вторник, 08.02.2011, 08:26 | Сообщение # 147
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Hi, Christina! Thank you for your interest in our site.

Hello Sergey!

I have always wanted to have contact with Russian breeders.

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There are many problems in understanding the genetics of color in guppies.

Yes, but lately the Guppys genetics, as well as the zebrafish have now been unavelled.
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As a biologist myself, I believe that one of the main criteria of truth is an experiment. More precisely, numerous experiments in crossing different species of guppies. Russian table of Base body color genes was made of 100% on the basis of practical data on numerous progeny, many times.

Absolutely. biggrin And in Europe we have crossed Guppies since 1897, that is nearly 120 years. My background is medicine and biomedical chemistry. I can understand the pigments you mention in your table. wink

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We tried to combine European and Russian table, but it is not possible. You must choose one of them and explain it correctly.

So have I, and I understand why it will not work. We have tested different genes or rather pigments. In your turn you have tested others! This is very interesting. I am certain both are correct, because funded in science. BOTH! surprised

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And as you know, it's our table.

Please Sergey, in the interest of science, lets not be preconcieved! This will not bring forward. I am interested in finding the truth, not to put on someone others sunglasses.

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New understanding of guppy's color genes:

4 groups of guppy's color genes:

1) Base body color genes - Black (Melanin), Yellow (Lutein), Red (Astaxantin) and White (Guanin)


We fully agree on that in Europe too. The difference is, we do not differentiate betewen Lutein and Astaxantin IN EXHIBITION GUPPYS! We know this scientifically and agree!

But do you agree on that there are many more xantofores? Why do we not use them as well for defining Guppycolour? Theoretically we could do so.
Answer: The table becomes too big and no hobbyist can see the difference. Try sixfold-recessive guppies dry

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2) SubBase body color genes - Albino (a), Lutino (lu) and Hypermelanism (Hm)

We also know this.

But there is a problem - We have taken in both Albino and Lutino into our exhibition standard = the IHS. But they have not 100% scientific coverage. The definition Albino is not met by the "Albino" guppy. The Lutino definition is not met by the "Lutino" guppy either! But we call them that ... Lutino birds or other Lutinos are not the same. The Guppy is scientifically no -ino!.

Quote
3) Secondary Sex Colors - Japanise Blue, Neon and Orange Carotinoids (Orange pigments - from food only)

Correct, we have those also - astaxantin for example. But if the enzymes for the syntetisation are not in the fish - no Pigment can come from the food, no matter how much you eat. The syntetization ability must be met, within the fish. Do you agree?

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4) Above Secondary Sex Colors - Pearl (Platinum)

Yes we distinguish this type of color also. And we also have another, similar type: the scematofores. Difference is - we do not mention it on the exhibition standards = IHS. But we cross for it in hobby -

How wonderful - we seem to agree on so much - the question is how you arrived at this. That is what I am interested in! Why you started on lutein AND astaxantin for example. What was the motivation for you to go test these ? Just asking, I want to know.

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You can check all our information by guppy crosses...

Absolutely! This is only way - we must duplicate result to see it. But we would be very interested in if you could test our findings as well!

Quote
Guanophores are not "Optical conclusion". We can see their by microscope.

Of course, Sergey. This was not what I meant. You misinterpreted me. I wanted to know, WHY you validate this color so much/important. We in Europe have this only as secondary /sex color. Never mention it in tables.

It is obvious, that any fish must have iridofores. The belly makes the fish invisible for predators coming from underside (the water surface is light and fish must be light). Therefore we do not consider this a Guppy "breeding" interest in the same way.

Also a fish assumes "night dress" when nature goes darker. Predators will not see the iridofores, on a fish that can control them. We in Europe therefore consider iridofores only be interest as Top color for "breeding beauty".

Lets talk! smile

Greetings from Christina

Сообщение отредактировал christinag - Вторник, 08.02.2011, 08:39
 
genetika-guppyДата: Вторник, 08.02.2011, 22:37 | Сообщение # 148
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I will answer tomorrow, Christina. Today I was busy. Sorry. biggrin
 
genetika-guppyДата: Среда, 09.02.2011, 21:45 | Сообщение # 149
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Quote (christinag)
And in Europe we have crossed Guppies since 1897, that is nearly 120 years.

Christina, I hope you understand that we haven't so much breeds of guppy 120 years ago. We had some information about genetica of selection breeeds last 50-60 years only. Also, you need a good understanding of how to conduct the cross and how to properly evaluate the results. In world practice, guppyreeders did one, because it used a genetic analysis - the only method that allows a home to obtain evidence of genetics some signs.

Quote (christinag)
We have tested different genes or rather pigments.

No, it is big mistake. In Russia, Sweden, Thailand and USA are the same guppy strains. No difference between genes but we have difference in methods and understanding.

For Example, cross between Transparent and wild Guppy. If we have 30-40 fry from F2 we have 3-4 Base Body color phenotypes only. If we have 300 fry - we have 16 Base body color phenotypes (russain variant). In Europe if we have 1000000000 fry in F2 we have only 3-4 phenotypes smile

For example, Platinum, Half Black, Golden and Albino are the same strains, but it is different group of genes:

1) Base body color genes - Black (Melanin), Yellow (Lutein), Red (Astaxantin) and White (Guanin)

2) SubBase body color genes - Albino (a), Lutino (lu) and Hypermelanism (Hm)

3) Secondary Sex Colors - Japanise Blue, Neon and Orange Carotinoids (Orange pigments - from food only)

4) Above Secondary Sex Colors - Pearl (Platinum)

 
genetika-guppyДата: Среда, 09.02.2011, 22:06 | Сообщение # 150
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Quote (christinag)
Please Sergey, in the interest of science, lets not be preconcieved! This will not bring forward. I am interested in finding the truth, not to put on someone others sunglasses.

Quote (christinag)
We fully agree on that in Europe too. The difference is, we do not differentiate betewen Lutein and Astaxantin IN EXHIBITION GUPPYS! We know this scientifically and agree!

Different pigments - different colors - different genes.

Also I want to say about Base body color genes interaction (all 4 pigments genes have interaction!!!):

Two basic rules:

1. Recessive alleles of each gene reduces the amount of color pigment granules, which are coded by the formation of these same genes, and the phenotype of color almost does not occur.

Ie if the genotype, for example, mm GG EE XX, it reduces the size of granules of melanin in melanofores and the fish is not a black and gray, in any color - as well as Base body colors as Secondary sex colors.

2. The more recessive alleles of genes in the color genotype, the smaller the quantity of pigment cells.

Thus, the ratio of dominant and recessive alleles of 4 genes leads to the appearance of all possible phenotypes in Base body colors and Secondary sex colors.

Quote (christinag)
But do you agree on that there are many more xantofores? Why do we not use them as well for defining Guppycolour? Theoretically we could do so.

Answer: The table becomes too big and no hobbyist can see the difference. Try sixfold-recessive guppies

Quote (christinag)
But there is a problem - We have taken in both Albino and Lutino into our exhibition standard = the IHS. But they have not 100% scientific coverage. The definition Albino is not met by the "Albino" guppy. The Lutino definition is not met by the "Lutino" guppy either! But we call them that ... Lutino birds or other Lutinos are not the same. The Guppy is scientifically no -ino!.

Please read and translate it:

http://genetika-guppy.my1.ru/forum/2-253-1

 
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