Genetika-guppy.my1.ru

One simple rule: "LACE" refer to tail only! Specifically, sieve, net, mesh pattern-- like snakeskin. Snakeskin pattern becomes distorted on tail to become longer links or rosettes. BUT STILL SNAKESKIN pattern, Interlinked. Remember, tail only!

This is Asian and IFGA (American) definition. Yes, this is true. BUT, it originates from the "English Lace" guppies of G.W. Philips of England, born 1883, who invented British judging standards. These "English Lace" had snakeskin on bodies not so good; BUT LACE TAIL PATTERN EXCELLENT! Eduard Focke Schmidt of Germany created the Half Black or "Tuxedo" guppy from these "English Lace".

In Russia, it is very, very possible that you have different naming of strains. 1940's-1990's Russia and West isolated from each other. Developments occur seperately and independently. This is fine.

I complain only when English-speaking Western native (Philip Shaddock, LOL ) uses terminology wrong-- misguiding people.

We will understand each other. I already am beginning to see light. My guppy friend, Kerry Collier, is very much interested in your ideas-- he likes very much! Language barrier is difficult.

I would say that some phenotypes display weakly or poorly to point of leaving observer questioning. If you showed Vladimir's picture of Red Lace Snakeskin to, say, 100 American guppy breeders, 90 would say snakeskin. Perhaps 1910 would be not sure. Snakeskin pattern not strong enough to be 100% sure. Myself am 100% sure. Someone else may be only 10% sure. ^ _ ^

I think snakeskin comes in different strenghths (intensities). May be additive trait. No?

I have gorgeous Breeder Lace Snakeskin male who sometimes looks like snakeskin body and sometimes snakeskin is so weak, he looks Full Platinum. Sometimes I not know what to think!

Always remember, Lace = tail only.

All other guppies on the page are either Snakeskin or Cobra (Zebrinus bars) with "Variegated" tails. Some might call "Variegated" tails "MOSAIC" also. Variegated is more proper. Does this help?

BODY DESCRIPTERS ARE: Half Black, Tuxedo, Moscow, Russian (Moscow), Metal (Metal Head or Moscow) Snakeskin, Cobra, Platinum, etc.

TAIL DESCRIPTERS ARE: Lace, Variegated, Mosaic, Grass, Glass, Galaxy (Creator said tail resembled stars in Midnight sky), Solid (one color only), etc.

Of couse we have Delta Tail, Veil Tail, Topsword, Doublesword, Bottom Sword, Veil Tail, Fantail, etc for tail SHAPES.

Добавлено (13.05.2010, 23:27)
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Genetics is one. Yes. I am just trying to explain Western Guppy naming so we can better understand each other.

My naming is 100% correct in West. It may not be 100% correct in Russia.

When World was divided, communication between 2 sides was lost. Maybe Lace Snakeskin was found/created in Russia at same time or before G.W. Philips in England. If so, Russians have a different name.

The name of guppy follows creator (breeder) or country of origin. That is why in West, Metal Head guppy is more correctly called "Russian" or "Moscow"

I do not know where IFGA got their naming system, historically. I do not know. I do know it is similar to Japanese system for naming strains. Internet and Globilization have made World smaller. For example: 20 years ago, many in America, England, Japan, Singapore, etc. called snakeskin and cobra the same. Slowly, very slowly, Cobra came to mean Zebrinus Bars on body, and Snakeskin came to mean 100% mesh, or chainlink (no bars). Make sense?

Ну так и я о том-же,у нас книжки не пишутся,сайтов по генетике до последнего момента тоже не было,журнал только "раскручивается",поэтому и написал,что они погоду делают-но только пока .

Germany seems to have its own system. So guppy naming is not yet International 100%. : D

I think they are same basic family. Modifiers cause a greater or lesser expression-- everything from barely snakeskin/cobra all the way through to a very nice, strong Snakeskin body pattern. Big range.

Lace tail is seperate genetics, but seems to require presence of snakeskin trait. Typically, Snakeskin is carried on Y chromosome, with sometimes "cross-over" to X chromosome.. In some strains, female carries snakeskin trait.

Lace, on other hand, is strictly (so far) on X chromosome. Females of Lace Snakeskin always have small round tails of NO color or pattern, OR very very weak color and pattern. Very boring, simple females. Here, with Lace, the female provides us a clue to inheritance. No?

Добавлено (13.05.2010, 23:53)
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In Asia, U.S., Brazil, and even Germany, breeders know/think that to breed the best Lace Snakeskins (best pattern on tail), clear-tailed (no pattern/no color) females must be used. Is this not same in Russia?

I, personally-- just me, Greg---sometimes choose females with more pattern. But I know not which gives best results. Most say the clearer the better.

Добавлено (13.05.2010, 23:58)
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Example: If I take nice Fullred Male Guppy to a German Red Lace Snakeskin female, I get 100% solid red tails-- NO pattern at all. In fact, Franz Zeiplig of Germany, who created German Red Lace Snakeskin, uses same females for his German Red Lace Snakeskin and his Half Black Reds (Red Tuxedo). For Lace female to throw her hidden Lace Tail Pattern, she needs something from the Y chromosome.

Добавлено (14.05.2010, 00:03)
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The naming system is fine, so long as we 1) Know what each other is talking about, and 2) Respect Creator or country of origin who invented the name. I think.

Я подметил тот факт, что когда корпус "решето" (с одинаковыми точками) - хвост также с очень тонким узором.
Вот таких гуппи и назвают Lace. Даже если это только хвост - по сути - это неправильно. Ведь змеиную кожу мы смортим по корпусу, а Lace - видимо один из вариантов змеиной кожи. Поэтому нужно смотреть либо все вместе либо что то одно.

Hallo Greg,
ich habe gelesen, dass du Verwandten in Deutschland hast.
Deshalb schließe ich nicht aus, dass du auch Deutsch als Sprache beherrschst.
Ich könnte Deutsch <-> Russisch <-> Deutsch übersetzen.
Grüße,
Jakob

Black Head

G.W Philips, as far as anyone in the West knows, is creator of English Lace guppy. It is first time Lace tail is seen here.
And so every guppy with Lace tail since is called Lace. It is the "provenance" (source) of the name.

We must agree-- or at least understand--- names of guppies, otherwise we cannot seek truth.

If I ask Vladimir, "What is genetics of Fullred Guppy?" Vladimir might think I mean Red Moscow, and give me inheritance for Red Moscow. But that is not same as Fullred Guppy. Fullred Guppy is not same as Czech Red Guppy (also FULL RED) found in Europe. Thailand Fullred maybe diiferent, also. This I do not know.

Mr. Shaddock wanted to discuss with me genetics of Lace Snakeskin guppy. But we could not. He thought it meant finer drawing of snakeskin pattern on body. I know it means snakeskin pattern on TAIL two very different things.

My definition has historical "provenance" (English Lace of G.W. Philips) AND professional embrace from Singapore, all of Asia, England, and America (IFGA), thus by extension all of South America (who judge under IFGA standards). Asia judge under many standards, but all agree on Lace definition. It is in judging standards. Judge Derrick Tan of Singapore explained this definition on all asian guppy websites many years ago, and it was fully embraced. he did not make up. It comes from G.W. Philips of 1940-1950 in England.

The other definition is thought up in head, with no support.. I think it may have basis in English translation of German "Filigree". But this cannot be so. "Filigree" means snakeskin on tail or body for German; while in Germany, Cobra (zebrinus bars) is called "Snakeskin". LACE is nowhere to be found in vocabulary. Names are not political; they, too, represent truth.

Добавлено (14.05.2010, 01:21)
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Fine snakeskin pattern drawing or coarse (heavy) snakeskin pattern on body means nothing; same genetics, just more or less MODIFIERS. Some have RED RED Hair; some have orangey hair - same genetics.

Lace, on other hand, is SEPERATE genetics, as can be seen with naked eye in female with small round tail that has very little or no color or pattern. It is these females, when bred to ANY snakeskin / Cobra male, will throw Lace Tails.

Snakeskin or Cobra = Body Lace = Tail Just as Glass / Grass = tail or Mosaic = Tail. Moscow, Black Head, Bullet Head, Metal Head, Russian = Moscow Guppy body color pattern; NOT tail. ^ _ ^

I mean Galaxy is not only tail. Look on Galaxy picture. It is ALL guppy phenotype.

I mean Galaxy is not only tail. Look on Galaxy picture. It is ALL guppy phenotype.

Most physical traits (seen with naked eye; phenotype) are POLYGENIC, that is they are controlled by many genes. Often, the more genes we have for, say, RED, the redder the guppy will be. Very few red genes and we have very poor red. Same with Snakeskin, Cobra, or Lace. Many Glass guppies have such poor tail patterns, we now call them Grass. Because they no longer equal quality of original Glass Guppy.

With practice, we can tell good specimens. This requires breeding a strain of guppy for many years. Mr. shaddock, for example, only really knows Moscow; he knows nothing of the Lace Snakeskin. Here is the danger. Lies get told and beginners believe. It is bad information. Geneticist Malcolm B. Willis warns us, "We breed animals, not pedigrees." The phenotype is of first importance, as where we have the Phenotype, then it follows that the genotype is also present. The proof is usually - not always - with the eye.

Добавлено (14.05.2010, 01:44)
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Sergey, you are correct. Galaxy is Bandit markings, snakeskin or Cobra body, Platinum sheen, etc. yes, yes. But Mr. Tsutsui of Japan said he named his guppy "Galaxy" because "its TAIL reminded me of stars in the Midnight sky." Mr. Tsutsui's words. Obviously, the tail was the most important feature for his naming of his guppy. But NOT only feature.

A Lace Snakeskin guppy with no snakeskin body drawing is not it a Lace Snakeskin; it is simply a Lace guppy.

If body is Cobra (zebrinous bars) and tail is Lace, then guppy is a Lace Cobra Guppy.

All pieces--or most pieces-- must be present for package.

So we must defer to breeder/creator of line always, as he knows best. Mozart really created nothing, in a way, as the same 12 notes/tones are avilable to us all-- they are universal in the air, like genes. But credit must go to the one who puts them together right, or even is only present when a mutation happens (passive). This person gets prize, whether through talent or luck.

Добавлено (14.05.2010, 01:54)
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Snakeskin-- indeed all patterns-- come in fine (thin) or coarse(heavy). We say draw "fine" line, or we say make "coarse" line. In language, these are "quantifiers", such as "more" or "less". But Lace is a pattern.

If your wife says, "Get me some Lace for my dress." You would naturally ask, "Do you want a real fine lace or coarser lace?" The quality may vary; but the pattern is constant/universal.

We do not use the word "lace" to mean "fine" or "delicate". One does not say, "Draw a 'lace' line here." You say, "Draw a 'fine' line here." One does not say, "I want a 'fine' pattern." Because it remains to be asked, "What pattern?" You say, "I want a 'lace' pattern." Or you might say, "I want a 'Mosaic' pattern."

The guppy tail is a canvas for the artist.

Добавлено (14.05.2010, 02:03)
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Also, all breeders grab Mutation created by Nature. Man is unable to create. We can only select from what Nature provides. Franz Zeiplig of Germany is credited as creator of the German Red lace Snakeskin because before him, no RED lace Snakeskin were seen. Ed Chaisson of U.S is "creator" of Fullred guppy because before him none were seen. He found a superior red male, and backcrossed daughters, grand-daughters, great grand-daughters, etc. back to this one male for 6-8 generations! he was really only lucky this great male lived so long. But he recognized that male's greatness. However, at same time, Czechloslavakian breeders were creating a Fullred guppy, also. Thailand, I think, too.

Добавлено (14.05.2010, 02:43)
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Yes, yes, I see 100%

I would only add that phenotype=genotype. In other words, If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably is duck. All the phenotypes I know of have a special genotype. In other words, we cannot have the phenotype without the genetics. We name phenotypes based on appearance; but, the correct genotype is also there, or fish would not appear correct.

Добавлено (14.05.2010, 03:01)
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" I mean Galaxy is not only tail. Look on Galaxy picture. It is ALL guppy phenotype." Sergey

Yes, yes 100% also. Galaxy IS snakeskin / Cobra pattern, Bandit markings, Platinum sheen, etc. But if we ask Mr. Tsutsui, "Why you call your fish 'Galaxy'?" He said (his own words) "Its tail reminded me of stars in the midnight sky."
So in his eyes, the tail was his guppy's most important feature. : D Mr. Tsutsui is our origin or provenance.

The key principle is "provenance" (history / origin). This settles most disputes "Cobra" term, for example, originates with Mac Guppy Hatchery in New York in 1964. When Mac Guppy Hatchery closed, Singapore took over the breeding of the Cobra commercially. Many years later, show breeders removed zebrinus bars from Cobra and call new version "Snakeskin". So "Lace" 1950 "Cobra" 1964 and "Snakeskin" later / last. : D

Vladimir's guppy above is (I think?) A Half Black AOC (any other color) US or Dragon Guppy (Asia) Genotype is Y chromosome = Snakeskin (or Cobra) and X chromosome = Half Black (or Tuxedo). Very, very little snakeskin, if any, remains on head. These are truebreeding strain, and would be considered Half Black (or Tuxedo) for the dominant feature. Tail is not Lace. Tail is Variegated or Mosaic. Therefore one could even call it correctly a "Variegated Half Black Blue (since tail is light blue). Or Pastel, even. ^ _ ^

Добавлено (14.05.2010, 05:28)
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JS, Hello JS

I am German. Mother from Goppingen; ancestry from Poland/Hungary/Romania and France. All my family, aunts and uncles and 25 cousins-- all grown-- in Germany. Bavaria area. Only sister, Mother, and myself are here in U.S.

Can you tell me what "Zisiliert" means? I have seen Gernot Kaden use this word to describe Lace Snakeskin. I am unable to find meaning on Internet. I can ask my Mother, but she is very old.

Zisiliert? what it mean?

Добавлено (14.05.2010, 05:35)
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Hello JS

Was ist Zisiliert? Gernot Kaden use to describe Lace Snakeskin.

Добавлено (14.05.2010, 05:59)
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Y chromosome is same for all. X chromosome is different for all.

All 3 are wild-type, body-base color Grey.

Добавлено (14.05.2010, 07:20)
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I try only for truth. Sergey my friend. Vladimir my friend.. I do NOT say I am right. I only wish to communicate the strains of guppies so we can talk genetics/inheritance.

In America, we have no Vladimir.. Stan Shubel is Master, yes, for Quality Guppy; but, he cannot breed strains like Vladimir. Philip Shaddock? Theory, yes! NO practical resume. He cannot answer question. He does not sit by aquarium doing crosses long enough.

Franz Zeiplig and Gernot Kaden of Germay? Master Breeders, yes! They cannot do what Vladimir does.

On website, Philip Shaddock says, "If I could speak longer with Vladimir, he could save me years in discovering truth."

Philip Shaddock knows that Vladimir is a Master! I see, too!

Please, please, never misunderstand me. I want truth, also. I care ONLY for Green/Blue Lace Snakeskin Guppy.

Fullred, Czech Red, Thai Red? They are all to my eyes orange! I care not.

I care about Green/Blue Lace Guppy and Hardy (strong) guppy through Biology/Immunity. Only.

Добавлено (14.05.2010, 07:23)
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The Lace Snakeskin Guppy above is GRANDFATHER to Solid Snakeskin above. Female? Solid Purple Delta, IFGA.

Strong, intelligent guppy Breeders must stand TOGETHER! Seek Truth!

In spirit of Paul Hahnel, breeders should unite! : D Communicate through email for International United Guppy Club!
IUGC. Forget IKGH, IFGA, and IGEES - seek truth with no political aim. No $$$$$ through book sales! ^ _ ^

All guppy standards come together for International Global Good. Forget American Imperialism, Leninism, European Union, or Asian factor. Seek truth. Ones who make crosses and sit by tank with crosses decide. Science and genetics will follow! : D Above are all Master Breeders of Guppies - all know truth. : D

So, You support me if I contact Universal Guppy Breeders to try and form INTERNATIONAL UNITED UNION?

Does Sergey agree? Many good Guppy Master Breeders out there who sit by tanks and witness/see outcome of crosses. Wish to know truth. There is no future in Independent Guppy Clubs. World/Genetics is ONE!

I can ask kerry Collier and Anthony Fischinger and Toni Milligan for help in U.S to unite Luke Roebuck and Stan Shubel for common cause. From there, word spread to Germany and Europe. I can talk to Derrick Tan and Kee Huat to bring in Asia. This can easily be done! Do you agree, Vladimir?

I see what you and Sergey are trying to say. I do not understand completely; but you know much.

I am embarrassed I do not speak Russian

Hallo Greg,
du meinst bestimmt diese Aussage von Gernot Kaden:
http://guppyfreunde.foren-city.de/topic,1474,15,-halbfiligran.html
"nein, die Männchen von Hans Großmann hatten ein viel feineres Filigran auf der Schwanzflosse, fast wie zisiliert."
Ich wermute, dass er meinte "ziseliert"...
Das Wort "ziselieren" kommt aus spanlose Metallverarbeitung, siehe:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziselieren
und bedeutet "Bearbeitungverfahren, welches Linien und reliefplastische Formen entstehen mit weicheren Kanten"
Damit wollte er bestimmt sagen, dass Filigran von Hans Großmann war noch feiner und hätte keine scharfe Begrenzung des Musters.

Foto von Original Filigran von H.Großmann hat Gernot auf Seite
http://guppyfreunde.foren-city.de/topic,1....an.html
reingestellt.

Hoffe, dass ich dir geholfen habe,

Jakob

We have many questions to IKGH and other associations.

About guppy genetics and standarts, for example.

I have begun the process! See first announcement here:

http://guppylacelovers.com/forums/index.php?topic=137.0

My American friend, Anthony Fischinger, has greatest respect for your efforts. He has a chart similar to Russian Table.

He proposed to Mr. Shaddock several years ago, but was likewise rejected, and his forum posts removed. He says Russian Table is common sense-- practical. Mr. Fischinger is more advanced than me, as he makes complex crosses.

Vladimir,

I agree 100%. We must get names down Internationally so we can communicate about genetics.
A German Shepherd is a German Shepherd around the World; must be same for guppies.

Добавлено (15.05.2010, 02:01)
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This very importnt

Добавлено (15.05.2010, 02:28)
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Regional differences from country to country are fine and good; but, genetics is universal truth.

IFGA demands a 1:1 caudal-to-body ratio ( tail=body in length). IKGH demand a 8:10 caudal-to-body ratio.

But these are same! Why? Because as fish grows older, the 8:10 guppy will become a 1:1. IFGA simply exhibit old fish. This is why Europeans think IFGA guppy is of poor health. IFGA Show guppy is just old. Genetics of IKGH and IFGA guppy are same here; only age of fish is different. At 8 months, guppy is 8:10. At 10 months, guppy is 9:10. At 1 years old, guppy is 1:1 There is no difference.

People think American IFGA guppy is big. But is this due to genetics? I think NOT. American feed guppy 8 times a day, with live baby artemia 2-3 times a day. This is not good for the fish or the fishkeeper!

So, really, the differences are not all that big. We are more the same.

Knowledge of guppy genetics will have to come from those who sit by tank and do the crosses, like Vladimir.

Amateurs reading "The Theory and Practice..." learn nothing. I hope to bring together the great masters such as Vladimir and Gernot Kaden. We could learn more in one day listening to Vladimir and Gernot talk, than reading books for a year. No?

Добавлено (15.05.2010, 02:39)
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In America, Stan Shubel of IFGA has been breeding guppies for 50 years. He has nearly 200 tanks. His strains, Blue Delta, HB Blue Delta, Red Delta, HB Red Delta, Purple Delta, HB Purple Delta, and Green Delta he has had in straight lines over 30 years! No new blood! He keeps 3-4 related but seperate lines of each strain. He developed the matching dorsal-to-caudal match. No one in U.S. is his equal. This is a man people should listen to. Practical experience.

He did not wake up one morning and say, "I think I will write a book." No, no! He was asked to write a book by a major publisher. He did not print this book on his kitchen table, or pay someone to print it for him. He had a publisher. He did not write about what he did not know; he wrote about what he knew.

Добавлено (15.05.2010, 02:50)
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Interest is already growing:

http://sgguppy.com/smf....c=809.0

Vladimir was my inspiration.